Ever wonder how Taylor Swift built her diehard fan base? It's not the glitzy costume changes or famous boyfriends. Taylor's audience can't get enough of her songs because album after album, her lyrics make them feel like they know her. She puts into words the same experiences they're going through too.
As business owners, you can forge those same genuine connections that turn you into an audience favorite. The secret sauce? Everyday, relatable stories. When you share these real snippets of your life, storytelling becomes your ultimate differentiator.
The good news? You don't need to be a pop star to make it work for you. Tune into this episode to unlock the secrets of relatable storytelling that will set you apart from others in your niche.
EPISODE SHOW NOTES👇
https://heathersager.com/episode216
🔗 Grab the latest FREE resources: https://heathersager.com/start
🔗 Browse all episode shownotes: https://heathersager.com/blog
👋 CONNECT WITH HEATHER:
Work with Heather: https://www.heathersager.com/
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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/HeatherSager
If you’re loving this episode, please take a moment to rate & review the show. This helps me get this message to more people so they too can ditch the hustle 24/7 life.
Ever wonder how Taylor Swift built her diehard fan base? It's not the glitzy costume changes or famous boyfriends. Taylor's audience can't get enough of her songs because album after album, her lyrics make them feel like they know her. She puts into words the same experiences they're going through too.
As business owners, you can forge those same genuine connections that turn you into an audience favorite. The secret sauce? Everyday, relatable stories. When you share these real snippets of your life, storytelling becomes your ultimate differentiator.
The good news? You don't need to be a pop star to make it work for you. Tune into this episode to unlock the secrets of relatable storytelling that will set you apart from others in your niche.
EPISODE SHOW NOTES👇
https://heathersager.com/episode216
🔗 Grab the latest FREE resources: https://heathersager.com/start
🔗 Browse all episode shownotes: https://heathersager.com/blog
👋 CONNECT WITH HEATHER:
Work with Heather: https://www.heathersager.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theheathersager/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/HeatherSager
If you’re loving this episode, please take a moment to rate & review the show. This helps me get this message to more people so they too can ditch the hustle 24/7 life.
I feel like our work together has been really valuable in showing me that I don't have to have a different persona to be on stage or to be a speaker. I don't have to be more anything, I can just bring more of myself to it, and that's what lets those messages flow naturally. And also that there is a stage for every personality type, even if you didn't expect it, you know.
Speaker 2:This is the podcast for the entrepreneur who wants to make a big impact, who doesn't shy away from hard work but also wants to enjoy life along the way. Hi, I'm Heather Sager, former executive-turned-entrepreneur, and I've spent the last 20 years working with premium brands on sales, marketing and communication, and I've learned that when you become a magnet with your message, you only need a hint of hustle to achieve your goals. Get ready to be inspired and ignited each week with tangible strategies on sales, speaking, marketing and so much more. This is the Hint of Hustle podcast. Let's go Well. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode. I am thrilled to have my friend, my client Also. She's been on my copywriting squad before. She's also a second-time guest of the show, zafira. Welcome for today's conversation. Thanks for having me, heather. We were joking before we hit record that we are hanging out with each other all day today because we have back-to-back calls booked literally together, just us talking about things. But I'm excited for today's episode. Listeners, this is going to be a little different. Instead of interviewing Zafira on today's topic this is kind of a new thing.
Speaker 2:It's not very often that I have experts come on my show that have expertise in what I teach. Typically, I teach what I teach the way that I teach it. However, zafira and I teach very similar things in the realm of storytelling. We just got finished wrapping up preparing her to teach on stage next week. We've been geeking out about storytelling for the last few months, working on her talk together. We thought it would be pretty cool to just hit record and do an episode of two supergeeks around stories and language, just kind of chatting about our takes on storytelling and an effort to help you my listeners become more effective storytellers so that you can really stand out when you do share your stories and your message from the stage. So, zafira, I'm just curious when I asked you to come on the show to talk about storytelling, were you intimidated? Were you excited? How are you feeling about it?
Speaker 1:I'm a little bit of both, and that's because, like you said, we do different types of storytelling and when we work together, you can show me the things I can't see. Just the same way, when people work with me, I show them what they can't see, but for you it's a visual language and for me it's on the page, and you're just so good at it. So, yes, it's definitely intimidating, but I also love the way our minds meet during those conversations. So I know we're going to like have some magical moments here too.
Speaker 2:There are a lot of different ways. I kind of jumped the gun here. So for those who haven't met you before, so I do storytelling through words, they know me already, but for you, you are an amazing copywriter storytelling. Why don't you just share a little bit about your business and your take and your love of stories?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. Yes, I'm a copywriter, I'm a brand strategist and I primarily help entrepreneurs with unblocking their voice on the page, helping them harness their creative energy and writing sensory stories that connect with their audience. So I'm all about leveraging the micro moments in your daily lives, whether it's for your business stories, whether it's just to become a better writer or to just fall in love with the creative process of writing. I have just always been very encouraging of enabling people to build the writing muscle and I'm so excited to just like share that in my talk. Like you mentioned next week and, you know, bring more people over to that side. But I think, like at the core of what I do, I really like to help people feel comfortable in their writing voice. Just the same way I think you like to make people feel comfortable on stage and really be their true self. Right.
Speaker 2:You know it's so fascinating about the work that we do. We both had I talked about this last time Zafira was on the show and I'll link to that because that was a really great episode how it's fascinating because I'm always in awe of what you do. And then it's like vice versa, because I mean I'm a good writer. I kind of joke the fact that I like suck at writing. I'm actually a really good writer. It just doesn't flow as naturally for me. I would much rather grab a microphone and just start talking. Then when I sit down, like I have, I mean, a treasure trove of unfinished email drafts of just like this got started, then I get bored. I'm like, no, it's too hard, but speaking is just so much easier for me. Like, give me a microphone, give me an audience. I could slay that, but getting it into written format stresses me like it stresses me out, and that's just such a gift that you have. So I'm just curious you have the opposite approach.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and as you're saying that, I'm like Heather. I've been meaning to like have a webinar for every launch of mine for the last three years and I always end up doing an email on the launch because that feels like encode the lazier, but really it's just more comfortable, I think, because that's the space I like to play in.
Speaker 1:But even though I know how impactful it could be to have video trainings or to do more of them, and I've seen the impact it can have for my business, but I feel like for me, unless there's some pressure applied, I'm just never going to get around to doing those things, like I have to have a speaking spot or I have to have been asked or invited into be something, and I'm sure for you to until it's time to launch or it's time to do the thing. Okay, fine, I'll like write all the things. Yeah, so we both have it in us.
Speaker 2:I just don't I don't like I do parts of it piece right, but that's why I hired you. You helped me with my website years ago. I now have a conversion copywriter on staff that she writes the laundry meals. I love directing it. I love being like oh, here's the story, here's an angle. I love directing the message and the strategy behind it. The actual writing bar is just.
Speaker 2:It's exhausting to me and I feel like I don't know. I just need to publicly declare it in case anyone else feels that too. It's not that I don't do I still do it but I think it really speaks to we all can tap into our strengths in different ways. You know something that you were sharing with me. So before we hit record, here is DeFira did her final like dress rehearsal. If you will pilot for your presentation next week, and one of the things that you shared when we were debriefing after that I thought was really cool is you were sharing with me that you used to think around like that quiet, calm was not a thing on stage. Can you talk about that a little bit? I was like, oh, people need to hear that. We need to see like different ways around how entrepreneurs show up.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think when we are served, all the messaging around getting visible and being on stage, usually it's also coming from someone who's a facilitator, who's high energy and just has great stage presence. But also when you think about you know memorable speakers on stage like they just they brought it. You know the second they stepped on there like you were hooked and I have always felt as like more of the quieter person or you know all the labels people can slap on you as an introvert. Even though you have a calm effect or you have a soothing effect, you never think that people need that from a stage. You think they need that in a different way, whether that's being coached by you or being taught by you or a podcast. You know people like have always told me I like listening to your voice on podcast because it's calming, and I never thought that.
Speaker 1:I never connected the dots with the fact that that could also translate on stage until I had my first keynote and I was freaking out. But what I found is that I think it's still a really valuable effect because I also think being on the receiving end for people in your audience, I think being slammed with like high energy all day long in a conference or in a series of talks can also feel like a lot, and when I'm teaching what I teach specifically or talking about it, I want people to feel relaxed about it. I want them to feel at ease. So I feel like our work together has been really valuable and showing me that I don't have to have a different persona to be on stage or to be a speaker. I don't have to be more anything, I can just bring more of myself to it and that's what lets those messages flow naturally. And also that there is a stage for every personality type. Even if you didn't expect it, you know.
Speaker 2:I do know. You know what's fascinating. I remember so when you spoke at your, your first big keynote, virtually I was in the audience like puppy dog, like cheering you on, so excited I was like doing the video on Instagram stories. It's very exciting to see your. I feel like a pageant, like stage mom was just going to say that you're my pageant.
Speaker 2:So I, but I remember there's something to be said when someone takes the stage that is a different I don't know this is the right word but a different energy, a different dynamic. It's almost like a breath of fresh air for everyone that they feel you can see, that they feel empowered, that oh, this is a different level of energy because, let's be on, most people don't have that high, high energy on stage and if they don't naturally have it, the people who try to do it, it's a turn off. So, yeah, seeing speakers, when a speaker comes up, that is calmer, more soothing. I've even seen it.
Speaker 2:A conference is before some conference years ago and there was a speaker take the stage and he was kind of like a brainiac nerd which I'm like I can get behind, but his speaking style was a little nervous energy and I remember thinking like this guy's not a great speaker and when I talked to other audience members they freaking loved him and it was because he brought a different energy that was less polished, less like professional speaker and more like them, which I thought was a really interesting thing. I don't know, I don't know if you notice that a lot too, that people think that they have to be, a certain way, the truest way they show up is the best way to show up, and sometimes we don't feel like that's good enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so too, and I feel like oftentimes we, when we think of our audiences, are who we're speaking to. We think that they're expecting the best of the best of the best, and they are. But I find that, being in the audience, I'm also rooting for someone. If they're a little imperfect and if I can tell that, like, even if it's not, the delivery is not like incredibly masterful. They just really care about what they're talking about and you know they're doing the thing and people I feel like are always rooting for you if you've decided to take the stage, because that is a big, scary thing to do and everyone sitting there watching me is being like holy cow, I could never do that. Or, you know, I'm so impressed that they even, like, got into this position. So I find that our audiences are a lot more forgiving and a lot more at ease and on your level than you think. So I totally resonate with that, because sometimes these super polished ones feel like they're on another level altogether, almost on a pedestal, and I'm like I know there's no way I'm going to talk to them after or connect with them, and it's just they're like in a different league on their own, which is still great, but maybe not as approachable. And I think when you do kind of show up with some flaws or just being truly yourself, people can totally resonate with that.
Speaker 1:And this is totally random, but I went to see Beyonce this week and I was really shocked by how she opened her tour, which is like with these really slow ballads and some of her older songs, and no one was expecting that. But I went there primarily also because I wanted to pump myself up for next week. But it showed me that like, if you just show up as you truly want to be and you know, like, have the right message and you worked really hard, people are just going to lean in anyways. And it doesn't have to be big and bold and bright and like wild and like it did get there eventually. But she set the tone for our audience to feel super comfortable. So I personally really connected with that, because that's kind of my vibe too. So, yeah, just mention it.
Speaker 2:You know what my brain is still in with as you were talking about that. First of all, I'm very excited you finally got to go see Beyonce because that was on your birthday bucket list. So good job, you Thanks. Ok, side note to the side note. Last, I think it was a couple of weeks ago when you and I were talking, I confessed to you that I'm not really a Beyonce fan and I like I feel bad saying that out loud because I'm like people are going to come for me who didn't like Beyonce.
Speaker 1:The big I'm just going to come for you.
Speaker 2:I know I'm not a Beyonce fan. I'm not really a Taylor Swift fan. It's not that I don't like their music, I just I'm not obsessed. Where I am obsessed is I'm like the singer, songwriter. So I am fascinated by people who write and create their own music, which I know Taylor Swift does a bit. But warm for me, like I love Sarah Bareilles, the band the Fray that was like my favorite band in like the early 2010s I love. Like Charlie Puth, I'm obsessed with right now just because of his watching him. I don't know if you ever watch his TikTok videos where he creates from noises, like he takes a noise and turns it into a melody and then creates a song.
Speaker 2:Like there's something about the artistry. I'm a former musician, I play piano growing up and singing that. I'm just obsessed with that, but it just. I think it actually. This brings up a really good point. This was not on purpose, but here we go full circle.
Speaker 2:The whole thing about being your true self and sharing parts of yourself and we both do that through storytelling is it allows people to get to know you and to create those like obsessive followers like Beyonce or Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2:But it also had it. I mean the stories they might create, people who are like I hate that person, but that's not really. I think people think that extreme happens, but I don't think that's really the thing. I think that when you're able to still show up to what you do, explain what you do in a great way, understand how to teach, how to write, how to communicate, people can have a level of respect for that, without being your obsessive fans that, like you, become enjoyable. Like I am, I'm not indifferent to Beyonce and Taylor Swift, but I am not a like anti either of them. I don't know if this is even making sense, but it's just like there's an interesting part around is that I think we live in a world where we think it's so extreme, either people love you or hate you, but I don't know. I think there's a lot of great area in the middle.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think the great area in the middle is the respect. Right, and for context, I went to this concert alone because all my close friends and my partners like they're like she's cool, but I'm not obsessed, right, and but I can respect that. She's a great singer, she's a great performer and blah, blah, blah. I'm like I'm not going with anyone who's not at the level I'm at, just fully enjoy it.
Speaker 1:I didn't know this detail and that's pretty amazing and I treated myself to floor tickets like the price of what would have been me paying for two of us to go with whoever I was going with, and you know what? I had absolute best time ever. But they were also so happy for me. Just like you said, it is an alarming amount of people in my life we're like I'm so happy you finally did that.
Speaker 1:They're probably tired of me saying I've never seen her live, but they all respect her and but it doesn't mean they they have to engage in indulge in the same way I do. So yeah, I think that is like maybe not a gray area, maybe more of like a green area of nicer color in between, where you can still hold someone in high regard, but you don't have to be a diehard fan.
Speaker 2:I think, making this translation to marketers, I always have some kind of business lesson. I think a lot of times we make our marketing decisions, whether it's speaking, whether it's writing. We gauge our feedback based around the obsessed fans which, let's all be honest, the email replies, the people who tell you are awesome, that, oh my gosh, your stuff is so great. Those would be like the Swifties or the what's, the equivalent of the Beyonce world.
Speaker 1:The, yeah, the the.
Speaker 2:Bay High.
Speaker 1:Okay, there we go.
Speaker 2:So there's that right. But then there's like a whole wealth of people who still appreciate it and like enjoy listening to the music, and I think that's okay. So here's my side tangent to business. I think a lot of times there are people that are listening to your messages whether it's in your audience or on your email list or reading your blogs that you'll never hear from, because they're not the type of people who are the obsessive, go to the concert or obsessive or reply or whatever else, and I don't know. I think what's cool about stories here's the pivot to storytelling is I think the stories allow you to connect with a lot of different people. You can connect with your super loyal people who are engaged and they're going to gobble it up. But it also transcends to the people who are listening, but you don't always know that they're listening, that they might not be the most actively engaged, but you become like stickier in their mind. You slowly claw your way into that obsession.
Speaker 1:Like, yes, I think that's so true. And I think the importance of showing up consistently with your stories is that really you're playing the long game right? Because, like I mean, I know I've experienced it and I'm sure you have someone's been on your list for years and then, out of nowhere, like I've been reading and following the stuff for ages and now I want to do this with you or I want to do that, or like I want to invite you on to this thing that I have, and I'm like I didn't even know, like this person has been consistently opening my emails for years and years and you just never know like who's listening, right. But it's important, I think, to keep showing up for them and keep tuning in on the quality of your stories, because they're low key, invested and maybe investing in you Years and years later, you know, just like putting a bug in someone's ear.
Speaker 1:My best friend is not obsessed with Beyonce, but now she's the one sending me TikToks and her whole feet is that. And she's like what have I become? You know, I think she's low key, getting converted.
Speaker 2:But the cool part about that is okay, so I've been I've been talking about this for weeks is that this idea of becoming more known, putting yourself out there through telling your stories, through sharing your message. What we really what I define as becoming known is where people recognize your name before you even take the stage or before you even get the introduction. They remember your work, they remember your stories, they remember how they felt when they heard you speak and they refer. They refer you to their friends, they talk about you, whether it's obsessively or I love it when people this is my best piece of feedback I'll be scared is when people like thank others for introducing them to me, like, so that's how you know you have a good refer. So, with your friend who's not obsessed with Beyonce, what's cool around that is now she's actually looking for things to like send you around, beyonce.
Speaker 2:I think by this, all the time I get people coming into my world you probably do too who have never bought anything for me, ever. But they refer me left and right. Yeah, they tag me in the Facebook group saying, oh, speaking coach Heather Sayger. Oh, you need speaking coach Heather Sayger. And sometimes I'm like, but they don't even know if I'm good, but there's a reputation there, right, like I think that's. What's interesting is, the more you talk about your expertise, the more that you tell your stories, showcase your street cred through stories. That's my favorite way to do it. People refer you even when they don't buy from you and that, like I don't know, that's my favorite way to market.
Speaker 1:I think so too, because I think, as you keep showing up and you know, telling stories means you're sharing parts of your personal life. You're sharing the real stuff that's going on, and I think that makes you more credible over time and more trustworthy, right, because you're not hiding behind something else, you're just showing up and being real, and I do think those people in between, the people who respect you or you know, may not buy from you, may not be invested in you, can still be your biggest advocates or your biggest affiliates or whatever you know.
Speaker 1:it's just important that they still know you're around.
Speaker 2:So you, we have similar, so you have a membership. You have a course where you teach people like writing right, writing you speaking me, and in both of our programs, story is a central piece of it, right, it's one of the vehicles that we use to help our clients feel more connected to their audience and their audience more connected to them. I'm curious I'm going to go left field here and go geeky and let's talk about from a business perspective what's the case that you typically make to your clients around like why our stories not just like a nice to have to make you likeable, but why are they a necessity for business owners?
Speaker 1:I think they're a necessity because really, in the sea of everything out there, that's really the only thing that can set you apart. That is the only unique thing you can gravitate towards and share from your unique perspective, that no one else can copy, no one else can imitate. It's also the thing you have the easiest access to, even though technically it seems hard mentally to wrap your head around it. I often have to help people realize that it's. The simplest form of storytelling really, at the end of the day, is just to leverage what's already going on around you. Ultimately, at the end of the day, I want people to connect with their audience on a relatable level. I want them to feel like the people on the other side of the screen are just right there with them.
Speaker 1:I often find when we take story out of the equation, our messaging is either too vague or it's wandering, or it's not anchored in anything. The most consistent thing we have going on is the everyday stories happening in our lives, and those themes will show up time and time again and your audience will be looking forward to you sharing those themes time and time again. For me, for instance, it might be how I talk about the ocean or my two rescue dogs or my love of books are clearly Beyonce, but those all end up becoming pillars of your content over time. I think it's the easiest thing you have access to. It's just flipping your mindset to realize that it can be such an asset instead of something so overwhelming. I'm sure you have your way of making the case for it too. What's yours?
Speaker 2:I have all the things. Well, first of all, just that idea. I've never heard that phrase before, but I'm like duh, that is so brilliant around. It's the easiest content you have access to. Yeah, what's so funny for me? On my end, what I always hear is people are like stories are so hard, it's like I don't have any. How do I come up with them? It's fascinating because we get to be like there's all these stories, but that whole idea is the easiest thing you have access to. That's just a very simplistic but such a profound thought. Yes, amen to that. I okay. So people probably know this for me by now, but I have, okay.
Speaker 2:I used to have a friend in high school I think she meant this as a compliment. I was confused at the time, but she would call me a yo-yo, where I was constantly flipping back and forth between, like detail stuff and then switching gears to big picture things. That's been a theme throughout my entire career. I remember when I was walking through a hotel in Las Vegas. It was one of my first site tours for booking a $500,000 hotel contract ever. I was scared out of my mind, thinking, oh, this is a lot of pressure. But I remember walking the hallways with a meeting planner at the hotel. We were talking bigger picture around the room design or the room block, I don't know something, big picture. I stopped and I looked over and I asked a very specific question Around and what time does the front desk open for something? Something Like it was the most detailed question on the planet. She looked at me so confused that I'm like sorry, my brain is constantly going between, like big picture, small picture, and that's when I recognized, oh, I'm different than other people.
Speaker 2:So, coming back to storytelling is when I'm thinking about storytelling for clients, I always am holding these two dualities around stories, where I know that stories is this like, almost like this softer hug that makes people feel good, where there's this connection that happens unlike anything else. And I can hold in the exact same space that there is a damn specific strategic reason for why we're telling that story. Like I don't think that being strategic as a business owner and having objectives, I don't think that cannibalizes the comfort and connection that comes from stories. So I that's what I'm always thinking about is juggling those two, because I think a lot of people think it's one or the other. So for me, like on the business sense of stories.
Speaker 2:I think stories are the easiest way to sell your stuff because you get to tell the why you created something and the why isn't because I wanted to start my own business, because I wanted to like ditch demand. There was like a reason why this one idea that you had came in. There's context around it, and so that's one of my favorite things. So people know that I love teaching people how to sell. It's like my sneaky pocket skill using stories for selling, using stories to amplify your credibility. It's the easiest way to do it.
Speaker 2:Otherwise, you have to like get on your soapbox and pretend like you're a car salesman or use the bro marketer scripts that sound terrible. Like it's when you're, when you're selling, like spewing these scripts. That's why it rubs you wrong. But when you're telling the story of why you created it and who it's for, that feels like a hug and a blessing because you now have an opportunity to work with someone and get the results you're after. So I'm always like in that duality. I think you get on that all day long, but I don't know. It always like sends to blow people's minds around how I can toggle between and like what's the, what's the thing, what's the objective for overcoming and all of that, yes, absolutely, and I feel like where we meet in the Venn diagram of those two things.
Speaker 1:That's really the emotion, right, like what you're saying, like when it's a script, you can tell, and for me, when it's you know something that someone has tried really hard to write in a way that just talks around the story instead of telling the story, you can tell. And I think for both of us where it was just like blowing the dust off of the BS and we're like just say the real thing.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And just tell them why, tell them why. But I think I think where people find it challenging is that sometimes they don't know that the stories are stories and I think we're both good at like opening people's eyes to be like, no, that's the story. Go there, do the thing. You know what you were mentioning in terms of like people remembering your stories and having that be something attached to you. You and I worked on a really cool opening story for one of my key notes, my eyebrows story, and people still mention that till today. But I remember at the time when we were just riffing on things like I didn't realize that would be the story and the using, but you were like Spira, that's gold. So you know we speak a different language visually and in our words, and I would have never thought to use that, but you were able to spot the opportunity right there because you can yo-yo between all the things, right.
Speaker 2:That was fun. I still. Yes, y'all. We did an entire opening story around Zephira's eyebrows and it was the literally I think the word eyebrow in the chat at that event was probably the most like utilized words in like the stickiness factor of that story it was. It was so good. I wish we could share it. But I'm curious for you where okay, I'm going to go a little different direction here and put you on the spot. What are some of your storytelling? Like nails on a chalkboard things, as in when you notice other people bless their hearts as they say not from the South, neither of you, but I've here. This is what we're supposed to say when we bless their hearts for doing things wrong. What are some of those things that you notice that you wish you could help them shift?
Speaker 1:I think, when people tend to use all the adjectives instead of spelling out like what's actually happening underneath.
Speaker 1:So, for instance, when people I don't know you might say, like I was in a room where it was just like loud and it was noisy and I felt really overwhelmed and blah, blah, blah, blah, like they just you know, I don't really know what's happening in the room right Like what's making it loud and what's making it chaotic and like how is overwhelm feeling in your body. So I think when we just say things on what feels like so surface level, it doesn't give your audience anything to latch onto. And I just wish people would add more detail to their writing and to the quality of their writing. It's already there. They just don't know that. That's something they need to do until I can help them switch that light on.
Speaker 1:And you know, when people I think anytime I read copy on a sales page that's like benefit based and it's things like increased confidence or just like you know, it's things or like clarity or things that just are feel so intangible without understanding how you can like ground them in the context of what you're selling.
Speaker 1:And I think probably my third pet peeve is when, especially around launches, if I'm reading someone's bio or I'm reading their story and there's nothing in there about why they made the thing or why they've created it, but it's just like here's my bio and here's my credibility, by the thing, you know like I need that heart and I need like that essence behind things for me to feel really connected to someone in the coffee. So I guess probably my overall pet peeve is people just playing it safe on the surface when they could be going so much deeper. But I understand why, because that's just probably the easiest way to do things. But it can also sometimes be like the laziest way to do things if you're just like I just need to get something out the door. But I think people can tell when that's the case.
Speaker 2:That's a true one.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So my language around that. So I have a similar thing. Okay, so it's interesting. I never realized I was a good storyteller. That was not even a thing on my radar. I did not know I was good at telling stories. I didn't really experience that I told stories Wasn't really a thing until I had to right, until I had to start telling my stories. And for me both, I'm actually curious. I wanna hear your story around like why does storytelling become a thing? Like? I'm actually very curious around when that really became true for you. I don't know when it became true for me, but what I know to be true is people have heard this story before but when my mom got really sick from cancer so senior in high school I remember so my family had started our nonprofit.
Speaker 2:It was her last Christmas present we gave her before she passed away in March. And I remember my high school teacher it was I can't remember what class it was, it was like government or something but it was the class that we had to do this big senior project in, and part of our grade for graduation is we had to present our senior projects. It was like a big presentation. Everyone was freaking out about it. Every year the seniors go wild because they have to give this big formal presentation. I'm like y'all have my mom is literally dying. Like I have bigger problems than a fricking presentation. But I remember my teacher pulling me aside and him saying or is this early in the year right, where she was diagnosed terminal? But we didn't really know how it was gonna go. And I remember him. I could just imagine this teacher like trying to explain this to a teenage girl. He I get choked up thinking about it. But he's like are you sure that this is the topic you wanna speak on? And he could like envision the end of the year, like what happens if this girl's mom dies. Like I don't wanna like be the one having to tell her like you failed cause he can't deliver a presentation.
Speaker 2:But my whole talk was around our foundation and my mom and it was all around cancer treatment, pro-breast cancer we'll get into that. But I remember this conversation with guys so clearly and sure enough. My mom passed away in March and I had to get this presentation in June and I remember that we were split into rooms and there were I was in a group with like four football players giving their presentations. One of them was gonna become a real estate agent and his mom had a real estate agency. So like they were all just very dude style things, and I stood up and gave my whatever 12 or 18 minute presentation about my mom and our foundation and I cried the entire time, cried the entire time and I just.
Speaker 2:It was interesting, but what I realized from that was standing up in front of a group and just sharing my truth, which is such cheesy language, but sharing the real story of why I picked the topic was one of the most free things I've ever done. And when I then went on to compete in Miss America and started my platform was breast cancer awareness and I had to tell rehash this thing that my mom died over and over and over again, which sounds like it'd be a horrible thing to talk about, but it was the most therapeutic thing I've ever talked about. So for me, sharing my story was what got me through that and it's like the basis of the work I do now. But I never, ever, considered that storytelling.
Speaker 2:So for me, when I think story and sharing hard things, when I now connect that into business, it's the point in the story where I wish I had a Kleenex in my office, but it's just. I don't even remember why I started talking about that or the connection was back in, but I just think that so often we're, sometimes we're hunting for the right stories to tell. Sometimes, depending on where you're at in your life, there is a story that needs to be told for whatever reason. You don't question it, and that's definitely been my journey, but it is a thing that embracing my role as a storyteller has been the biggest changer in my life and in my business. Now I don't remember where I was going with that, but that was a journey.
Speaker 1:That was beautiful and extremely moving and I think on its own just goes to show how liberating the process can be, right, like yes, it can do all these great things for your business and it can can really connect with your community and do so much for your audience, but can also just do so much for you on a personal level to really get comfortable sharing the hard, sharing the hard story, sharing the powerful stories and I know I feel it too every time we work together and I end up telling you stories.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I feel so nervous before I'm about to do something and then, after it's done, I'm like wow, I feel like a million pounds lighter, even though this felt really heavy going into it. And I just think that it can be so freeing on its own, just for you on a personal level and on how you end up showing up in your business as a result, for other people as a result and for yourself in all the different ways that you share stories. It really has this ripple effect because I think it can change you on a core level truly.
Speaker 2:You can, and I think oftentimes I'm curious. Your take on this is I get questions from people around. Okay, I feel this thing I need to share on my heart, but then, in the kind of other hand is, here's like you wanna make sure that you're sharing things that are going to be helpful to others, right? It's not just about freeing your soul, it's about serving others. So do you like? How do you typically approach that with clients around, whether or not they should share a story, Like whether or not that story needs to be told in that format or at that time. It's always an interesting question.
Speaker 1:That is such a good question. It's one I get all the time and it's usually so nuanced because it depends on the context, like, is this a story on your about page? Is this a story in your email? And I think that you know something that I'll share, actually, from my own book writing process right now has been really fascinating in terms of like really anchoring stories and their relevance, which is, you know, I had to outline the whole book recently and my book coach was, like, before you write anything, I want you to map out each scene and the point of each scene. So it's scene point, scene point, and I have about 50 for the entire book and I've started taking that approach and sharing that with my community members when they're like is this relevant? Or like, why, you know, do I need to do this? So, let's say, in an email, it might be like three scenes, but you know three points and it's all coming back to something.
Speaker 1:So I think, when it comes to helping people identify what to carve away and what to chip away and what to keep in, it still has to have a point.
Speaker 1:You still have to have an overall message or a mission, and your audience it wants you to take them on a journey from A to B, and if you go to Excel and then you come back to B, that's the sign that that's something that maybe we can tuck away later or maybe we can move it into the PS, but the journey has to be there.
Speaker 1:So I like to make sure that people tend to end up meandering in the middle, and that's where they get tripped up the most and that's usually where I do the most culling, and some people also are never sure where to start things or they get really lost trying to end things. So it's just, it's those beginning, middles and ends that are the trickiest, and sometimes I like to switch them up depending on the kind of story that we're telling. But at its core, I like for you know the people that I support to really remember, like, what's the point here? Why are we talking about this? Why is it relevant to your reader? And that's why many of the season storytellers you'll see in your inbox will open with a seemingly unrelated story, but by the end of it they've taken you somewhere completely different and now you're like, yeah, I want to buy that course actually, but this started with something about you on like a roller coaster ride, right, but you took them there. So, yeah, I think it's about the destination, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's me here, I'm doing thing. It's interesting, right, Because in writing, when you see it reflected back on the page, it can feel like, oh, very clear around where to like strike through. And even with my clients, we you and I did this right.
Speaker 2:I'm like write it out, talk it out, transcribe it so I can actually show you what to cut. And something that's interesting is this happens to almost everyone. It doesn't matter if you're like a professional storyteller or not. Everybody has the rambly first version where the first time you tell the story it's not going to be your stage-worthy story. You need to get out the rambles Because I find it's almost. Sometimes you notice how, when someone's on a coaching call for anyone listening who's been on group programs the same thing always happens. When someone jumps into a hot seat on a coaching call, they just deliver all of this context and backstory and, as the person speaking, we feel this is necessary. They need the context in order for this to make sense or in order for to like to justify my question or something else. All this context and I think you did the same thing in storytelling what I always find is tell that story because most of it is context that is unnecessary for the actual point of the story, and so we can like shave off and cut all of that extra and start at the good part. That's my favorite thing to do with people.
Speaker 2:I did this for a client, Nick. She was on the show two weeks ago. She had keynote happening that week on a different topic and she showed up to a session and rambled out this whole story and I'm like perfect, start here. And it was two thirds of the way in the story and she's like what, Like mortified? I'm like kill the darlings, as they say. Start there, trust me. And she practiced it and she said she's never had she's a professional speaker, she's never had an audience so captivated and engaged as she did the start of that keynote and I'm like hell, yeah, I know things, I know things sometimes, but is that like meandering piece in the editing process? But I don't know. I think people think that, oh, I'm a good storyteller, Therefore I can just ramble it out, but you got to ramble out the rambles.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, and I mean I consider myself like a good writer. I remember writing out my opening stories or whatever you were quick to point out, like this sounds great on paper, but if you were going to read this out, this doesn't sound natural, right, because I'd gone and edited it and polished it and stuff.
Speaker 2:So I had to. Oh, you edited and polished, oh yeah, but like I just said, sifira, would you read that out loud? And you didn't, I go, how'd that?
Speaker 1:feel, yeah, I buffed and I like I scrubbed it, all the things, but you helped me, like ramble in a different way and I, you know we all process differently. So I think that's really important and I think the whole piece around providing context and you know the lead up to things. When I see people do that I'm writing to.
Speaker 1:I think we do that to protect the story a little bit and to protect ourselves. And then we get comfortable in the middle and obviously, what is scary about sharing our story on stage and when we're speaking, it's starting at the big part and that's what you are so gifted at helping you know, people realize and identify. And also really insightful to know that that is actually what your audience really cares about. Right, yeah, yeah, and no one knows what the first drafts were, but like I'm sure they would always be shocked if they knew.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. Ok, I have to pull up this quote. I read this earlier in a coaching call I was on today. I was listening to a book this morning and there was a quote that stood out and I'm like I have to write this down and then I rift on it. But I think a lot of times when you say, when you said that piece around, we had the context to kind of protect our own story. Brilliant, I love that. That reminds me of so I wrote this down. I don't remember what was the actual quote and then what I added to for it, but here it is.
Speaker 2:Are you more interested in being right or getting it right? How you answer this question determines how you're able to receive feedback. What makes me think about this with stories is sometimes we're so tied to wanting to tell a certain story or a certain part of the story that it's almost like our egos are saying, no, but this story, this is important, we want this and we're wanting to be right to be able to express that. But the question is, is that more important or is it more important to serve your audience and serve the point? As you were saying earlier, it's like every story, even my beloved or even dead mom.
Speaker 2:Whatever story, I have all these stories and sometimes it can seem seemingly that it's like, oh, heather's going off on a tangent again, which I do all the time. They're always anchored in a point, they're always come back to a lesson and it connects to my content. That's my storytelling framework is ABC, attract, Bridge, connect. There's three parts of a story, but if it doesn't go into an actual point that's going to serve your audience, then that goes well. You're just now choosing your ego to express, and that's great if you want to be an artist or a storyteller, but as a business owner, you have a duty to serve your audience.
Speaker 1:Yes, just my opinion. Exactly, it's just like the difference between being heard and being understood. And people can hear the story and all the things, but if they don't get where it's going or why it's relevant, then there's no point. So I think you're really great at applying your relevancy filter and building those bridges, which is often I find the trickiest part in storytelling and speaking, that I have no problem doing it and writing. So, yeah, there are so many moving parts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, OK, I'm curious. Let's talk about choosing stories. So the last couple of weeks I've been talking a lot about signature story. That's like the huge thing. Right now, we're in the middle of a launch. We're talking about building your signature talks. I think what's fascinating and the reason I want to ask you this question is you and I have now built two stage talks and they've been on topics that are within your core wheelhouse and neither of them have we used your quote unquote signature story and this is why I love this example is because I think a lot of people think that they have to stand up and deliver the whole origin story and you don't actually have to. You can weave in your credit building expertise in other ways, but you have really embodied my approach to keynotes and workshops, which is telling sparkly stories. So I am curious for you Can you share a little bit around your experience around choosing stories for your talks? I don't know if that process surprised you at all or just if you want to share any of that. That would be super cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's been really fascinating. It's been always an exciting challenge Because, like you said, there's always has to be a point and for my most recent talks, like you mentioned, you wanted it to be a story palooza, so we needed opportunities to weave in multiple stories, or my first one it was like one big one. So I feel like the process is always really enlightening Because, just like I mentioned earlier, like, oh, sometimes people don't know that stories are stories. I always relearn that every time we work on a talk and there are so many moments from my childhood or from my daily life where I'm like, oh yeah, like I know that happened, but I didn't understand that, like that connects to a way bigger and greater message than I realized and it slots in perfectly right here. Or I never knew I would use it in this way and I love that.
Speaker 1:You said sparkly stories, because really they are just moments that you can pull in, but they also are sparkling in the sense that, like, the quality of them is such that your audience really is right there with you and like they're listening with bated breath. They are choosing to be there and being the audience and they want to see where you take them. So that's always been a really fascinating experience to me, because it is way different from writing a story in an email and segueing it into like an offer or a takeaway or whatever. I have to learn how to do it in a way where it has multiple segues throughout the talk and it has like multiple functions and I have to like close a lot of loops along the way and that is really such an art form. I had no idea until we worked together and if I had tried to figure it out on my own, it would probably ramble for half of it.
Speaker 2:We know what's interesting to me. So I've worked with a lot of copywriters on speaking over the years and I love working with copywriters right, because understanding the structure of things, like we don't have to spend time around like here's a sequence, like, oh yeah, this is that part, now here's how we do it live. But the thing that has always surprised me is and this is a lot of business owners I always have people tell me oh, I love storytelling, oh I'm a great storyteller, oh, that's not that. Remember that nails on a talk board question. I asked you earlier, it's not nails on a talk board.
Speaker 2:But I am no longer. I no longer have high expectations when someone tells me their greatest stories, because 9.9 times out of 10, what happens is they start telling a story and then it's over and I'm like, oh, I love it, but where's the story? That wasn't a story, you just reported facts. Or I think a lot of times what happens is people think they're telling a story, but in their brain they're remembering the story but only verbally reporting about 20% of it, so it kind of skips. Like you know, a movie that skips decades except for this, is not a movie, because it doesn't make sense around how the decades go together. It's just kind of fragmented. And then they get to the end and they think this payoff and the point of the story is so compelling and I'm left going. I see what you were trying to do. We can make it. Do it better.
Speaker 1:Better, make it better, always From Heather make it better.
Speaker 2:Make it better and that's one of the things I've loved working with you is one you're a great storyteller, so you know the components of a story, so that's been easy. But what's been really interesting is that nuance difference around speaking a story and speaking it in a way that you're speaking it for the first time. That is a different art form, because storytelling is just a much about the being in the moment and sharing it. I mean gosh, okay, I hate coming back to this example, but y'all I ugly cried on this podcast today. I would imagine that you teared up too. I don't know, I was looking at the camera. I don't know where you went on that one, but I imagine you were listening. If you held it together through that, like good for you, right, but that piece is. I still get choked up talking about something that happened 22 years ago and, yes, I've emotionally healed from it, but I still I'm able to tell my stories in a way like I am sharing it real, raw and true, and this is something that I. This is what we worked on, right. This was in your closing story for your keynote. The time this airs it'll be this week Is closing stories are what I call a heartfelt story that needs to raise the stakes.
Speaker 2:There's a specific job of a closing story and it has to touch someone in the heart. And if we try to get it right, if we try to have the right words, if we try to recite a script, you miss the experience and that presence of the emotion. And I think this is something I've mastered really well and this is, I think, the hard thing for people to grasp going from a page to trusting that they're gonna get the story and they have to experience the emotions as if they're experiencing it for the first time, which is kind of scary to do if you're sharing something raw. But I am curious, because I pushed you pretty hard on the script piece on those how was that experience for you? Cause you've really made leaps and bounds in your closing story in the last three weeks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think what you've really pushed me to do is to you know, just know how to feel into it, but also, like he said, how to really raise the stakes for your audience and not just tell the story, but to command the room in that moment and have them be like this is some serious shit that's happening right now. Yeah, like there's a line, I know I'm going to say where you're like, stop right there, you know, pause, like, look at them in the eye and be like this is for real, like I need you to actually go and do this.
Speaker 2:I should tell them like you need to. Actually it's like you're yelling at them.
Speaker 1:I want to like a period at the end of that, like a boom, like my strict mom voice, right, and yeah, exactly, and those are things I might have just glossed over, I might have just, you know, said in a different way, but they really hold so much weight and I think, knowing when to infuse, like the pauses and like the moments, or like to slow it down or to just let the words breathe, instead of just talking and talking and talking and trying, like you know, especially for a closing story, you're like I'm almost at the end, like let's just go, let's get this done with.
Speaker 1:I think in both the talks we worked on, you have really helped me understand how much your audience needs that for the story to land the way it's supposed to land and also to just you know, it's kind of like when someone who's a really good speaker like is whispering and you want to lean in to just hear every word and they don't have to be super loud.
Speaker 1:You really taught me the power of that. And also just knowing how to like bridge everything right so it makes sense, and like we're still coming back to something that like is impactful. Like you said, that's not even just like the hug at the end, but is that like this is the reason you're here right now and like bring them back to that moment, connect it back to, like, the theme of why they're there, or the conference or whatever it is, and have it be very full circle, is again like such an art form, I think, because if you've delivered something so powerful, you don't want to end it feeling like it fell flat or you don't want to end it, have it be like a balloon that's deflating slowly because you gave all the good stuff away. I think you helped me realize it's got to be good and juicy all the way till the end, and the story in itself is also an active teaching as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like okay, we mentioned music. We started with Beyonce today and then I talked about my love of music. A good talk is like a song there and, if anyone knows anything about music, there's chord progression in music. There's like a, there's a template structure around how songs work between the chorus, the bridge, that like all those pieces. Right, I won't get into that, but when it comes to a talk, there are highs and lows, there are crescendos. It shouldn't be the same energy throughout the whole thing. And this is why I love storytelling so much is because it lends naturally to the highs and lows that you can take an audience on.
Speaker 2:I just had this light bulb as you were talking. So, zephyra, you teach sensory storytelling and side note y'all. You just you need to go follow Zephyra. She's got a couple of blog posts around this. You have a lot of content around it. I don't know how they can eventually hear this version of the talk you're giving. I don't know if you're gonna have any content around it, but, like, what you're teaching is fricking brilliant inside your talk.
Speaker 2:So she's teaching like ways to add a sensory experience in your stories and, as you were talking about, it reflected back to me. I'm like, oh, what you do for work choice, I do for, like delivery, yes, yeah. Like I don't know why I didn't get that right Until this exact moment. Like hello, heather, welcome to the party. But that idea like around the pauses, around the connection points, around the physicality we talked a lot about stage presence and movement All those pieces create that sensory experience for your audience through the volume and through the pace and through just all of that. So it is. I think a lot of people ignore that delivery piece. I'm obsessed with it because I could have mediocre content but really make someone feel all the things, because I'm very good at making my voice do different things or my eyebrows go crazy or my hand gestures or whatever else. So it's like I love how our brains work, bringing this full circle, like that's kinda cool.
Speaker 1:It is so cool and it's what I mentioned in the beginning Like you are so gifted at teaching a visual language and it's all those elements, right. That's like how you've taught me, like what to do with my hands. You've taught me like it went while points to walk between slides and like all those little little details I think make such a big impact on the overall delivery and like the sticking and staying power of it as well, which I think is what you ultimately really hope for with your stories, right, and how you share them. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's funny when you mentioned earlier around how you're known for, like your dogs, your rescue dogs, the ocean. You've used that into everything we all have like little nuance things. It is interesting because I think a lot of times we're like I wanna be known for and then insert the thing you do right, like I wanna be known for being the best copywriter, I wanna be known for being the go-to speaking coach, which, yeah, that's great but for me, like this is weird, my weird things being known for the girl who okay, weird side tangent. Here we go again Back to my mom's story. My mother's day posts that I post on social like five times larger, more popular than any other thing. Any time I talk about my story, about my mom, those things are far more popular.
Speaker 2:I have a reel on Facebook right now that I don't even remember posting it to Facebook and I still keep getting shares that it's like escalating like crazy. It's the story of me taking my kids to my mom's grave for the first time two years ago. I posted this reel two years ago, wow, and it's still like. It's baffling to me. But then there's this piece of like that's not around speaking, but it is around sharing my story and the fact that I help so many people who have had loss or who have a complicated relationship with motherhood or whatever else, that every mother's day or every season, every time I choose to talk about that, it reaches people and I'm known for that. I'm okay with that title. Like I think becoming known is more than just like our craft.
Speaker 1:I think there's so many other things that we can make an impact for in that, like I don't know, that's the power of storytelling, yes, and I think the power in both what we both do with our stories is really just about how we make people feel right. At the end of the day, I think we both have the ability to help people feel really seen and heard and accepted in ways that they might not expect from us, but those are the things they remember us for right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so good Y'all. If you are not on Zephira's email list, you need to be, because her emails are like. They're one of the very few that I actually read in entirety and I reply to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love when you reply to my emails, thank you.
Speaker 2:It's great, but as the one you get a masterclass around emails, but it's just a good experience to listen to. I mean, you do a really good job beautifully bringing in story but also modeling what it looks like to bring personality, without it needing to be big or dramatic. You bring in seemingly simple, everyday moments to show people how accessible storytelling is and I freaking love that. Like no wonder you said it's the easiest way to form content. You model it so freaking well. You make it look easy. I know for you there's a lot more that goes into it You're very good at it.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you so much, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:All right, as we wrap up here, Zephira, any other things on your mind that you would love for people to know when it comes to storytelling, If they're listening to us going? Okay, I hear you. I'm gonna start being more aware of how I tell stories, how I bring them in. Yes, we hear you. Let me say more than just my expertise Any tips or words of wisdom that you wanna share?
Speaker 1:Honestly, the one thing I would say is the sooner you start the better. I think I waited a long time for people to give me permission to share my stories. I think this is where we were going originally our origin stories, the sharing stories I just remembered. But sometimes I have waited up until I've been given an opportunity or I've been forced into it or I really feel like if I had been practicing it earlier, especially with speaking, a lot more opportunities and collaborations and connections would have opened up for me more than I dreamed possible, and thankfully I've had stage moms like you, heather.
Speaker 1:Not everybody has that, but I really I would have encouraged my younger self to have the guts to just try and share it and so, whatever form that looks like for you, I think the sooner you start the better, just so that by the time you are ready and you feel good, those opportunities will be waiting for you, versus waiting around and trying to see whether you deserve them or whether you're right for them or whether you need to be on stage or doing the things. I think everybody deserves a place on the stage and there is one for everyone, and your stories are important. Just start now. Just start now.
Speaker 2:I love that. I think that's decided as critical. I think that's the best advice for everyone. I think one of the things that I learned from you that you've really hammered into my brain in our work together for your talk because it's one of your core pillars of your talk, but it's the permission to edit Like that. Just that reminder has been so helpful for me in my writing, but also I have a version of that that I do with my people when it comes to speaking is it's don't you don't have to get it right the first time you do it.
Speaker 2:You also don't need every story to be perfect. Like there are certain moments that, yeah, you want to have your story more polished and more dialed in on the point, but there are so many other opportunities that you can just have a messy ramble of a story just to practice getting it out. And if it's like, oh, that was a pretty damn good story, then you make a mental note and say, cool, how could I tell it better? Like that iterative process of it. Like stories aren't just a thing. Like you tell it once and it's gone.
Speaker 2:The best stories stand the test of time. Like, if you think about, like the whole idea of, like tribal, going back in the day, people telling stories. That was how we passed things from generation to generation with storytelling. So it's this idea that, like, if you ever think, oh, I can't tell that story because I've already told it, better reason to tell it. Like, if you want to be known, repeat yourself a hell of a lot and make it fun and interesting and very dynamic every time you do, Like that's how you get really good at it. So, okay, I love that. So, Fira, thank you for this conversation with me. I know you and I both have very busy weeks. You're getting ready to pack and get on the road for your keynote. We are wishing you all the best and cheering you on this week. For those who want to connect and follow with you, where's the best place for them to go?
Speaker 1:Thanks, Heather. You can connect with me through my website, wwwsafiraarajancom, or you can slide into my DMs on Instagram at safirarajan. Thanks for such a great conversation.
Speaker 2:It was so good. It was so good, and we'll put all the links to all of that, plus Safira's first interview with me on the show from gosh. I think that was two years ago, yeah 2021,?
Speaker 2:I think yes, and I think we also told lots of stories in that episode too. So if you like this one, you'll love that one. But anyways, we'll see y'all on next week's show. Until then, have a great day. ["hustle Song"]. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Hint of Hustle podcast. If you're in the season of hustle, consider this the permission slip. You didn't need to take a beat. Go on a walk stretch. Call a friend, go reheat that coffee for the fourth time and actually drink it. Because those big dreams you're chasing, they require the best version of you. And if those goals include expanding your audience, establishing your industry credibility and selling your premium price programs, the best way to tackle this is through speaking. Your voice is your best brand asset and we'll teach you how to use it as a marketing tool. Head on over to the speakercocom forward slash, start, and I'll see you there. ["hustle Song"].