Hint of Hustle with Heather Sager
This is the podcast for entrepreneurs ready to be SEEN, HEARD & PAID for their expertise, without grinding 24/7 or chasing trends.
Meet your host, former executive turned entrepreneur Heather Sager, bringing 20 years experience in sales, training, speaking and business coaching. Her tough love, practical and hilariously entertaining style will help YOU show up with greater intention, more confidnce and make a bigger impact with your message.
Tune in each week to discover why thousands of business owners have made Heather their go-to business mentor.
Hint of Hustle with Heather Sager
Messaging Strategies To Captivate Your Audience Without Going Over Their Head: A Live Coaching Session
Could you accidentally be trapped in expertise overdrive? If your audience is smiling, nodding and saying, “Oh, that’s really interesting,” you’re facing a common problem of many online entrepreneurs–you’re overwhelming your audience.
In this recast episode from The Art Of Online Business Podcast, I live coach Rick Mulready’s co-host Kwadwo (pronounced “Quayjo”), through a powerful exercise to tailor your message so your expertise never goes over your audience’s heads again.
I’ve never shared these insights on any podcast before, so bust out your notebook because you’re about to reshape the way you communicate your expertise.
This conversation is filled with GOLD and tangible strategies and I can’t wait to hear how this one resonates with you.
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Well, most experts, we actually forget the granular, small pieces of what the like beginners are to our topic and we have a hard time meeting them where they are and talking about the things that are actually relevant, said another way, the pressing issues they're faced with. This is where a lot of objections come in, when people are like I'm not ready for your stuff because we're not even aware of those things anymore. So how we communicate, whether we're talking about more advanced level strategies or really simple things, we have a hard time explaining what we do in a way that others resonate with. This is the podcast for the entrepreneur who wants to make a big impact, who doesn't shy away from hard work but also wants to enjoy life along the way. Hi, I'm Heather Sager, former executive turned entrepreneur, and I've spent the last 20 years working with premium brands on sales, marketing and communication, and I've learned that when you become a magnet with your message, you only need a hint of hustle to achieve your goals. Get ready to be inspired and ignited each week with tangible strategies on sales, speaking, marketing and so much more. This is the hint of hustle podcast. Let's go. Hey friend, welcome back to another episode, special edition.
Speaker 1:This intro I'm recording from my new Barca lounger. You know one of those big oversized old man recliner chairs. Yeah, I bought one from Costco a couple of weeks ago to be my home for the foreseeable future. As I'm recovering from bringing a little one into the world. He's right now in my arms snoring away. If you can hear what I wanted to do, a quick introduction on this week's episode. My team pulled an interview that I did recently on Rick Mulrady's podcast and it was so freaking good. I essentially did a live coaching session on messaging with his new co-host, co-host Kwejo, and it was so freaking good we're like we have to air this on the podcast. So we chose this one specifically today for you, so that you can hear a little bit of my coaching style and my take on messaging in your business.
Speaker 1:As you round out this year. This is a really good time to really get settled in, thinking about your offers, a little one thinking about what you're going to be bringing into 2024. I think the timing on this one will be just perfect. I hope it meets you exactly where you are.
Speaker 1:As for me, I'm going to get back to loving on this little one and I will talk to you live again soon. Hey, be sure that you're checking in on me on Instagram stories If you want to know the latest of what's happening behind the scenes over the next few weeks. In the podcast, we're just going to be recasting some of our best moments of the year so you can get a little highlight around speaking highlights from my top guests from the year. We'll take care of you through the end of the year. We are going to take a little break on the podcast, but we will be back with a bang for hint of hustle in early January 2024. Wishing you all the best these holidays, I am going to try to get some sleep and I will talk to you soon.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:Hey Koi Joe.
Speaker 2:What struck me most when I met you back in Phoenix what was it like two months ago was that you said most online entrepreneurs super struggle with sharing their value and articulating their value and they do more harm than good when they talk.
Speaker 1:It's kind of a bold statement I made. Huh, oh yeah, here's the thing I am a big believer as a speaking coach. Obviously I'm obsessed with helping people speak better, more effectively and specifically in a way that actually creates results for their business. What I find is a lot of people forget this whole gift that we have and using our voices talking. We kind of take it for granted because it's been something we've mostly been doing our entire lives. When we start our businesses, we obsess over other things like how to write copy, how to design a webpage, how to do landing pages, how do I build a funnel the list goes on and on. We just ignore this gift that we have our voice, how we articulate our ideas, our expertise, the value of our services.
Speaker 1:What happens for most entrepreneurs when they step up to a metaphorical microphone or a literal microphone? They just start talking. I believe that your voice is your best marketing tool in your business. Every time you open your mouth, you're either adding value to your brand or you're eroding the value of your brand. What I find is most entrepreneurs do not realize that they're actually eroding their brand value by over-speaking, complicating their expertise and just talking about their stuff in a way that doesn't really captivate their ideal clients. It creates more confusion.
Speaker 2:Geez. Well, naturally I want to be selfish and say, well, where can I improve, heather? But first, where do you see the biggest improvements can be made? What do you usually end up talking to your clients about?
Speaker 1:This one is going to be shockingly obvious, but everybody misses it. Most entrepreneurs want to talk about what they want to talk about. They want to talk about what they know. They want to share their best tips, their best tactics. If I had a dollar for every time a client had the goal of I want my talk to be tangible. That's what everyone says, because we don't want to be lumped into the fluffy, raw, raw talks that are a waste of, quite frankly, our time. A lot of free webinars or free stuff that we go through we don't really get a lot of value. We want to be more tangible.
Speaker 1:What happens is experts, they start speaking like they're speaking to their peers. They start talking about the expert level of their topic. The hard part is when you're speaking in that way, your audience, you're going over their head, even if they're smiling and nodding and even if they give you praise like, oh, that's really interesting. Side note, my biggest thing is the worst compliment I can get knowing that my talk was ineffective was when somebody leaves my session saying that was so interesting, because what that did was it leaves the topic in the room on the table. They're not taking any action from it.
Speaker 1:Coming back to your question. The most important thing that we have to do to be more effective in our talks is answer. The question is what am I trying to achieve through this talk, or through this video, or through this live or through this podcast? Whenever we step up to a microphone, we have the chance to educate an audience, inspire an audience, but we're moving them to act in some way. Most entrepreneurs, they take these opportunities and they're unintentional with them. They just show up to educate, but there actually should be a strategic goal. We have to be more intentional with why we're speaking, where we're speaking and what we're talking about.
Speaker 2:Wow. So of all the places that we're speaking, if that's online Instagram, facebook, live streaming onstage, sometimes on podcasts many times, or even like YouTube videos is there one place that we can focus on to apply all this good stuff?
Speaker 1:I love this question, okay, because I think a lot of people think, all right, there has to be one platform, if you will, or one type of stage. That is the quote unquote best. What I say the best stage for you to get better at is the one that you actually enjoy. So what I find is there's two different types of people who are drawn to speaking, and let me just put this disclaimer in here. When I talk about speaking, I realize that most people think of a live, physical stage. We envision a TED talk or we envision a big conference, something like that, and that is speaking on a stage. But in our world, online, we have stages available to us all the time. So, as you just said, we have live video, we have podcasting. It's an audio stage, but we're also doing video right now. You have your own stages, you have other people's stages, there's all these places that you can show up and speak and what we no-transcript. I got really excited talking about the stage thing. Bring me back to your question Majo.
Speaker 2:My question was just of all the platforms that we are involved in, you know, as a 21st century online entrepreneur you know, social media and all this.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay. So I got excited there, which happens a lot of times too. So there are two types of entrepreneurs. When we show up on these stages, some people do really, really well kind of thinking on their feet. They love that live element, they love that pressure of I'm live, so I don't have to overthink it, I'm going to show up, I'm going to deliver my brilliance, hopefully with a plan. As we said, be more intentional. But then there are other people that feel way more comfortable if they have the safety net of being pre-recorded, meaning like YouTube or doing your own podcast, where you have the ability to come back later and edit it out. And I think there's this belief that one is better than the other. But I recommend that people choose the type of stage that's going to help them excel.
Speaker 1:So if you freak out, for example, from live video or the ability that you can't have a do-over or there's no editing, if that freaks you out, don't start there. Don't use that as your primary place to practice. Go somewhere where you can actually have that pre-recorded element and have that safety net to edit. But if you this is me, for example I freak out on the pre-recorded because it puts all this pressure on me for some reason. Just knowing that I have a do-over, oh, it just makes me go all weird and fumbly. And I'm not as great I am now, but at the beginning I was terrible with pre-recorded video. So I actually thrive in the live element because I can think on my feet. I like that pressure of being live and it makes me more authentic in how I communicate. So what's the best stage to do it? Honestly, it really depends on your personality and which one's more attractive.
Speaker 1:But one of the things that helped me really well was practicing on what I'll say is a private stage. What I mean by that is I was really good on public stages. I did public speaking for the last 20 years. I was speaking on stages all over the world, but when I started my online business and I had to look at a camera lens, like I'm doing right now, I could not think I could not function. My storytelling skills went out the window. I had this weird eyebrow, my face looked weird, like everything was all wrong, so I wasn't ready to actually be public facing into the world. I was embarrassed. It was just awkward. I had to get the rambles out and kind of get that awkwardness out in private.
Speaker 1:So what I did was just opened up my recording software that came with my Logitech webcam and I just clicked Go on the webcam recording on to my computer and I would be like, hello, I look awkward on video and I would talk to myself and sometimes it was so stupid and it was literally just pointing out what was in the room around me or how the set looked. And I did that for two minutes a day for 30 days and eventually, after a few days, I started asking myself, all right, what would be a question someone might have related to my topic, and I just started practicing, with no posting of the video, nobody like. It wasn't for anyone else but me, but it was to build my own confidence, thinking and speaking into a camera, and that is a skill that so many people struggle with. But they try to start by doing live video or podcasting or Instagram stories and they feel awkward, probably look awkward. So start in private if you need to, because the most important thing here is speaking is a skill and every skill requires practice.
Speaker 2:Boom, there you go, and I'm sure that so many people can relate to the hurdle that is speaking into a camera lens, because it sucks your soul and you're just ultra, especially if you have one of those flip open screens and you can see yourself and you're just ultra, ultra, ultra aware of all the little twitches that your face does.
Speaker 2:Like when I started Heather back on YouTube on another venture that I had, people that watched like my first 20 videos were like Kweijo, you look so scary and you never blink. And you know, the reason I never blinked was because I had so many takes, because I, just, like you said, I kept fumbling over my words and the edits were so harsh and I never blinked because I was absolutely petrified. So I'm going to rewind to when I first met you back at the mastermind and something you had said, which was that we just all need to shift the way we approach verbal communication to our audiences, and then I'm going to tie that into. You just told us that at the end of a speech, if somebody says, well, that was interesting, then you have absolutely failed on your mission speaking.
Speaker 2:OK, I wouldn't say absolutely failed, all right well please share a little more, because I know everything you told me before was super powerful and I want to just be super selfish and have you coached me through some things, but first share a little more about that. We'll get right back to the show in a moment. Hey, there, it's Kweijo here, and it should not be hard to find someone who's actually good and can get results with Facebook ads for you, who communicates with you regularly and who also knows online business and someone who understands funnels and how to fix them. And, humbly speaking, that would be me, after having managed Facebook ads over the past several years and also coached inside of a mastermind, established online course creators and online membership owners and online coaches in the areas of marketing and sales and systems, team dynamics and, of course, facebook ads. And when I say established online course creators, I'm talking on the lower end $200,000 in gross annual revenue and on the upper end, about $1.2 million in gross annual revenue.
Speaker 2:So if you are not ready to have someone like me manage your ads, you can still book an hour or an hour and a half session with me to troubleshoot your current Facebook ads, set up or even troubleshoot your leads or sales funnel and get it working even better for your business. Head over to Quajocom that's Q-U-A-Y-J-Ocom, and you can book a strategy funnel fix call with me. Or, if you're ready to explore having me manage your ads, you can apply there. There's a form, fill that out. We'll hop on the call and see how ads management can benefit your business. Again, that's Quajocom, q-u-a-y-j-ocom. Thanks for listening, thanks for heading over to check me out, and now back to the episode.
Speaker 1:So one of the things that all experts struggle with. This is like a common knowledge across the board. I cannot remember the psychologist who came up with this term, but there's something called the curse of knowledge and we all all struggle with it. Okay, so essentially what this is is when we learn something new. I'm going to get into brain science here and I'm not going to make it super techie, so forgive me for oversimplifying if you're a geek like me who really loves these things, but we're going to use totally pedestrian language here. So in our brains, when we learn a new skill, our brains are firing off these different connection pathways for how to remember how to do that skill. So let's say, for example, we all remember when we all learned how to drive.
Speaker 1:When you learn how to drive, remember that like the sweat you would get, like holding the keys to unlock the car door. When I learned how to drive, you still had to unlock a car door, like manually, with the key you slide in right. You had to actually insert the key, start the ignition. You had to think, okay, I have to put the car in reverse, I have to release the emergency brake. Okay, I need to check my surroundings, I need to make sure that I'm in reverse so I don't hit the garage wall in front of me. There's all these things you have to actively think about. Your brain is literally like lining up all, like firing off all these tiny little steps that you take when you drive. Fast forward, five years, ten years into your driving, Do you think about any of those things anymore?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Like you jump in your car. You're not even thinking you might even be hooked up to Bluetooth taking a call on your way to a coffee shop to go to another meeting. Maybe you're scarfing down your sandwich and driving with one knee. I'm not here to judge, but the point is you're not thinking about where do I check my rear view mirror when I'm using the turn signal? Am I at the right, proper degree for the parking spot? You're not thinking about any of those things that are all ingrained. And just how you drive and what's happened in your brain is your brain has actually learned to take shortcuts. It no longer has to remember the step of unlocking the car, turning on the ignition, putting it into drive. Those steps have actually been erased, if you will, from your brain, and your brain just now goes start the car or go into like, drive down the road. It's ahead, okay.
Speaker 1:Now how does this relate to you as an expert? Well, most experts, we actually forget the granular, small pieces of what the like beginners are to our topic, and we have a hard time meeting them where they are and talking about the things that are actually relevant, said another way, the pressing issues they're faced with. This is where a lot of objections come in, when people are like I'm not ready for your stuff because we're not even aware of those things anymore. So how we communicate, whether we're talking about more advanced level strategies or really simple things we have a hard time explaining what we do in a way that others resonate with. This is one of the things.
Speaker 1:I work with a lot of people who are actually experts in marketing, whether that you with Facebook ads, whether you have people who do business strategy. I work with copywriters. I work with people who do Instagram marketing, people who are experts at teaching other people how to do this, yet they get so frustrated because they can't figure out their own message for themselves. And it's 1000% because of this thing called the curse of knowledge. So if anyone listening is going, I struggle to talk about my stuff or how. How do I do this in a way that gets people interested and excited but actually drives results?
Speaker 1:There's nothing wrong with you. You're not terrible at it. It's not that your services are bad or any of these other dramatic things that we tell ourselves. It's just the sheer fact that you don't see it because of the metaphor have you heard before? You can't read the label from inside the jar. You need to have someone be able to walk you through. What are those elements that really speak to your ideal client, where they are, in the journey. And then how do you step into that language, talk there, knowing the heart. The heart part is people think oh, that's so basic. I wouldn't want to speak about that, but the heart part is like we have to be super simple and basic in what we talk about in order for it to resonate.
Speaker 2:Dang, I don't even know what to say after that. Can you help me out as a business manager of how do I talk and not talk over the heads of my potential clients?
Speaker 1:Okay, let's do a really simple exercise here, because I think this will be really powerful for people, because everyone is like, okay, no one wants to say, heather, that's really interesting, because I just told you, do not tell me that was really interesting, let's talk about. Okay, so this makes sense. I'm nodding my head, I follow what you're saying, but I'm trying to figure out. How does this apply to me? How do I see something that I can't see? And the word I'm going to give here that is going to transform the way you communicate is very simple, but it's the word context.
Speaker 1:This is something that I do exceptionally well, that I teach my clients how to do well is how do you create context for what we talk about? Context, said a different way, is how the heck does this apply to me? How is this relate to me in my life right now? How does this relate to my current problem? How does this relate to what I want? And if you can get good at creating context, the more powerful context you create, the more powerful your message will stick with the person listening. So let's just do. It'll give me a silly example here. But, quaijo, what's something that you like talking about? That's one of your favorite tips or one of your favorite topics that you really enjoy speaking about when you guest on other people's podcasts, or maybe when you do like a live or a webinar. Like what's just one specific topic.
Speaker 2:The right way to test your ads.
Speaker 1:Okay, the right way to test your ads. Okay, this is a really great example. So when we talk about there being a right way to do something, or our favorite way, or the top way, or a way right, what we want to think about is how does this apply to the person? So, by the word, the right way tells me that there's a wrong way. Fair assessment Okay, and it's the wrong way, how most people do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Cool, okay, I don't know if this is going to overwhelm everyone or blow your fricking mind, but can I give you a little formula here around, an easy way to create context.
Speaker 2:Let's go, let's go Okay.
Speaker 1:I've never given this away on a podcast before, so this is going to be super juicy and I'm very excited, okay, oh right, so okay.
Speaker 1:So what you can do is you can flip the script on what you want to talk about and let me just let me back up here and actually create some context, very, very meta. So what happens is when we're speaking to our audiences, kwejo, this is what I taught you at our mastermind in Arizona. Most people have you ever heard of the bridge metaphor in marketing? Right, you're trying to cross people past this invisible bridge. That's what a lot of other marketers talk about. Is you're trying to create this gap or you're trying to create this like connection for your audience around where they are and where they want to go?
Speaker 1:And the false assumption around this idea of creating a bridge is that, with a bridge, you assume that people can see the other side, meaning that they're standing on one side of, let's say, a giant river and what they want is on the other side. And there's this big gap in between. And it's your job as the educator to help them cross that bridge. Well, the big assumption which we all know what happens when we make assumptions is that they can actually see the other side. And the hard part is is, while some people are like, oh, I would love to have effective Facebook ads. The reality is your client doesn't actually know what that entails. They don't really understand the detail behind that. They know like ultimately, I would like for I don't know I would like to drive more leads into my business, but maybe they're not thinking. Well, are just leads in my business great, or do I want quality leads of actual buyers?
Speaker 1:There might be some more sophisticated questions that you ask people right on your discovery calls but they might not be thinking about that right now.
Speaker 1:They might just be thinking I need leads, I need leads. I've been told I need leads. So it's not really a bridge. I tell my clients it's actually mountain in between you and your client and that mountain. You're on one side with here's the happy results that you can get, here's the transformation that you want. You see so clearly what's possible for them. But they are standing on the other side going Mother Frick Kwejo, I can't figure out the dashboard in meta, like I do not understand.
Speaker 1:People keep saying go through and do custom audiences. Like what the heck does that mean? I'm like I. They keep saying it's so simple, it's so simple, but am I a dummy? Because it is not that fricking simple. So they have their own perceptions of these blocks and we keep thinking, oh, you just have to get past that part. You just have to get past that part, because the next nine steps, that's where the magic happens. You see this dichotomy between what happens, between what, no, they ultimately want, but where they're living right now.
Speaker 1:So if you're listening, I want you to imagine on a sheet of paper we have two little stick figures, one on the left, sad face. That's your ideal person that you want to help, and then, on the right happy face, that's you. Maybe you have a little crown on and you're like over here, this is where you want to be, it's great In the middle. I want you to imagine a mountain is drawn between you, so, said differently, a triangle or a pyramid. So what we have to do is, as we talk about our business, we have to help them climb the mountain.
Speaker 1:And in order for us to do that, what most people do is we just shout louder from our side of the mountain. We give them more facts, we give them more stats, we give them more examples and testimonials of all these people who are winning. What we're doing is we're yodeling from our side of the mountain, screaming it's so great over here, and then we're wondering but why are more people not joining? Why are more people not buying? And so what I find is the most effective way to get people to scale the mountain is you first must go to them. You have to scale the mountain and walk over to where they are and learn to speak, in a way like putting your arm around their shoulder and getting them to take the first use test to climb the mountain with you. And now making this practical. There's specific language that you can use to help people climb the mountain. Would you like to know what some of those are?
Speaker 2:Please, please.
Speaker 1:So this is like a really, really simple example, but let's say, let's use your example. The tip that you wanted to give people, the thing that you want to teach on your side of the mountain, was there's a right way to do testing for ads, right. So let's go to the other side. We can start first with what is an action that they're taking that is totally wrong. What is the mistake that they're making right now?
Speaker 2:Focusing on the graphics or video, like obsessing over it.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool, All right. So here let me just. I'm going to coach on this real quick. One of the most important things we want to do with an action is it has to be observable, which means that if you were standing over their shoulder at their computer at their work day, would you be able to explicitly say they are doing this mark, yes or no? So what you just said are they're obsessing over their graphics for their ad, correct?
Speaker 2:Yep, uh, oh, uh oh. Do I have to mark? No, I think no.
Speaker 1:Well, it's kind of gray right, Because what does obsessing mean? Obsessing is an internal thing that happens, right. Obsessing is kind of what's happening in our brain. So externally, what would they be doing that would indicate that they're obsessing?
Speaker 2:Planning out what their graphic so designing their graphics in Canva for too long? No, that's it.
Speaker 1:Do you see how simple that was? You're like that's too simple, that's dumb. Like no, yes, that's it. So what you could say is you know, okay, let's say you're on a podcast, quaijo, and somebody's going what is the like number one thing that you wish people took away from like, which they knew about Facebook ads? And you said, oh, I wish people knew that there is a right way to test. You would state that and then you would pause and say one of the biggest mistakes people make when it comes to Facebook ad is say it.
Speaker 2:Spending too much time in Canva to get their graphics absolutely right.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, so perfect. So that's step one is we're going to declare the action and it has to be obvious.
Speaker 2:Like I said at the beginning of this episode, I've worked with Rick for several years and, as you're clearly aware, I am a Facebook ads manager, which means if you need help because you're stuck in Facebook ad manager and can't get your ads to work right and feel like you're just throwing money away, or you want me to maybe manage your ads so you can get more quality leads and have more opportunity to work with people and serve them with your passion, then go to Quaijocom, fill out a contact form there and we can see how I can best help you. I also could jump on a strategy call with you. We can dive into your funnel, figure out what steps need to be tweaked so that your funnel converts better and your ads perform better. That is what I happily do for clients and I would be honored to have the opportunity to serve you in that way. Now back to the episode.
Speaker 1:Now step two is we're going to state the thought behind the action. So what are they thinking Like? Why are they spending so much time in Canva? What's the thought in their head that's causing them to obsess and stay all this time in Canva?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's easy. Because they're thinking that because we're using visual social media platforms, that they have to have a pretty graphic to stop the scroll. They're thinking that the more effort they put into their graphic, the better their ads will perform.
Speaker 1:Okay, that is beautiful. Did you see how that just rolled right off of your tongue?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you stated the action, the action mistake that they're making as they're spending way too much time in Canva. The thought behind it is that well, of course I do. My graphics have to be beautiful, because it's going to be on a social platform and that's what captures people's eyes. Which side note that sounds very logical, right? Okay, pause, I'm going to go very meta and actually do this right here. One of the biggest mistakes that I see people make when they're calling out mistakes for others is they call it a mistake that makes their ideal client feel like crap for making the mistake. Oh, no.
Speaker 1:Okay, no, you're doing good. You're actually doing good because we're not making them feel like crap. Okay, and here's what I mean by this If we were to do this in a way that would make our ideal client feel like crap, is saying something like oh, one of the biggest mistakes that just irks my whatever is that people spend so much time in Canva and because they're like obsessed with it, they love the pretty stuff, they just want to be in Canva all the time and kind of like poking fun of somebody who enjoys Canva. Now, you would never be snarky about it. There are some people that are kind of snarky, but they don't realize that they're actually offending their ideal client, who enjoys being on Canva, or maybe they think that that's where their value lies.
Speaker 1:You don't want to offend your ideal client. What we want to do is help them feel okay with the idea that, oh my gosh, I didn't know that that was a mistake. We want them to make them feel like oh, that's why, oh, okay, I don't feel bad for doing it, but then we're going to equip them with new knowledge so they can choose differently. So what we just did was step one is we call out the observable action they're taking. That is a mistake. Step two is we state the thinking behind it. That, quite frankly, is very logical. Step three is we're going to validate that thinking. So, kwejo, why does it make perfect sense that they would be spending so much time creating these beautiful graphics in Canva?
Speaker 2:Well, because graphics take effort and nobody wants to look at ugly things, and so if they have a bit of canvas skills, then it does make sense the more effort you put into making it look pretty.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The more graphic you get, more people want to look. It makes perfect sense.
Speaker 1:So that line right there the prettier graphic, the more people want to look. Or even what you said earlier around most of our social media platforms have been deemed as an ecstatic visual platform, so it makes perfect sense that we would want our ad graphics to look beautiful. What we're doing is we're making it okay that they've made that mistake. We're not making them feel bad for being dumb or wasting their time or whatever other thing. Is this making sense? Mm-hmm, think about that. Have you ever had that experience before when you've been listening to someone and you actually feel bad when they tell you what you've been doing wrong? Or you feel guilty, or you just have this like sting of like oh, that didn't feel good, have you?
Speaker 1:ever been called out like that, yeah, and being called out is not a bad thing, but we all know this experience when someone kind of like it just doesn't sit right. So my method that I do action, thought and then validate. And in your validate, what we want to do is use some kind of third party reason for why it makes perfect sense that they're thinking. For that it doesn't mean that we're not going to push them to think differently or do differently, but what we're doing is we're meeting them at the base of the mountain of where they are. We're wrapping our arm around their shoulder and they're saying we see you, we get it. This is why, you see, marketers say it's not your fault, you haven't been taught this. That is that arm. Wrap around that validation. And now they're nodding their head, going okay, I'm listening, what's next? Okay, so we have action, thought behind the action and validation.
Speaker 1:Now what we have to do action, thinking, validation. Now what we have to do is we have to challenge their thinking. Now, this is the thing that is the most challenging for people is how do we challenge someone without being so obvious or being telling them that they're like a dummy? What we do is, typically the challenge comes with posing a question. So the question could be something like for you is around, the testing piece is okay, something as simple. I don't know if this is the right answer, but the question is when it comes to ads, is the graphic the most important part, or are there other elements that actually statistically show lead to higher conversions?
Speaker 2:Well, good question. I'll just take that word for word then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you see how what I'm doing is. I'm provoking a question to have them rethink their life choices in this situation of my time choices right, and it doesn't mean that I'm saying that, oh, it has to be this way. But I'm asking a question to provoke their thinking and sometimes you might stack a few questions. So you might say is it like what if I were to tell you that graphics weren't the number one contributor to conversion on ads?
Speaker 2:Very true, and I'll go ahead and steal that question, and that's because I gotta go, huh, and then you could follow it up with.
Speaker 1:Wouldn't you want to spend your time and effort on the thing that's gonna get you the best return?
Speaker 2:Well, yes, yes right.
Speaker 1:You're getting a head nod. Well, yes, you're inviting them now to your side of the mountain. So what we've done is we met them where they are, and I know I'm taking a long time to explain this. This is by design. I want you thinking about this. Action, thought, feeling and challenge could be summed up in a couple of sentences. This could take 20 seconds to state on a podcast, but what you're doing is you're creating context for what you're about to say, which is what should they be testing Kwejo?
Speaker 2:They should be testing ad copy first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So you see, if you were to say that, it would be strong because you're an expert, I believe you, I trust you. However, if I don't know exactly what to do or if I'm like whatever, I'm going to go back to my old habits, right?
Speaker 1:And my old habits might be me living in Canva because I love pretty stuff, right. But if you are and I'm sure you're going to back up the idea of ad copy testing with some kind of rationale you probably have some stats around that you have some backup for your claim. If you were to help call me out for where I'm spending my time, that's not effective. If you did that before you told me what to do, I would be far more likely to follow your advice and listen to you. That make sense.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's a whole seven-part recipe that I teach to help people scale the mountain On both sides. There's actually seven elements. But if you could each master those first three things, which is the what's the observable action, what's the thought behind it, what's the validation, and then focus on challenging that, which you're going to be a little clunky at first, so that it'll take some practice, but you will, like bleeps and bounds, be farther ahead of connecting to your ideal client, then you would, if you just talk about what you want to talk about. So this is about inserting a wedge of context.
Speaker 2:The number one thing I wish people spent their time on when it came to Facebook ads was their ad copy.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm and then pause. Now go to the mistake.
Speaker 2:But what I see in my clients is that they spend way too much time in Canva trying to perfect their graphics.
Speaker 1:Thinking.
Speaker 2:Thinking that the more time they spend in Canva and the more time they spend looking at their brand guide and making sure everything is artfully and beautifully arranged, that their graphic will stop the scroll of somebody in their potential what's called a prospector. Yeah, and this makes perfect sense because and it makes perfect sense because Facebook and Instagram on our cell phones, they're visual platforms.
Speaker 1:And now challenge.
Speaker 2:but oh, this is hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is the hard one.
Speaker 2:But what if I told you that yeah. Is that okay? What if I told you, yeah, what if I told you, but what if I told you that, statistically, there was another component of a Facebook ad that actually was responsible for converting the most leads?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and here's that I'm going to be nitpicky here, just because we're on a podcast and I'm a speaking coach. What you would do is you would state that and then you would practice it to remove the extra words. So saying things like, actually you would remove that word and what you would want to do is learn to nail that challenge question, because nailing that question uncluttered, that's the clutch, that's what really gets people listening to you. So practicing that question of but what if I were to tell you, or what if I told you, that there are seven elements I'm making this up here, I'm not on Facebook ads person but what if I were to tell you there were actually seven elements that make an effective ad and graphics were at the bottom of the list period?
Speaker 1:The number one thing that I work on with my clients that makes the biggest difference is copy, and it's not just imagining having great copy. There is a way that we test copy that is unique to you, unique to your offer, unique to your ideal client. That helps you actually create. There's where you see, actually actually create something that converts. That's why testing copy blotty, blotty, blah, blah, blah. But you see how I'm like stacking questions here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is great. I'm like can I hire you to do like a video?
Speaker 1:Along with clients. But the the part about all of this is always happens to me when I'm on coachy calls in my group program. People are like right down, heather, what did she say? What did she say? Yeah, I've been doing this for a very, very long time. I've taught sales. I've taught like role-play, scripting, speaking. This is like baked in who I am, so I could pretty much sell anything. I'll just do a few yada, yada, blah, blah, blahs on the details of the topic.
Speaker 1:But what I've learned is I've learned a messaging pattern, a communication pattern that stacks questions, that helps people stick with you every step of the way, and that's it's a skill. This is the thing most people think like oh Heather, can you give me the script for how to say that? I just gave you a mini script in this episode. We did like an impromptu master class today that, like Ike drop, I hope y'all come back and like Listen to this over and over again and practice those little actions, thoughts, validation, challenge. There's a few more in there, but if you just start with that, you're great. But the thing is it isn't about having a script, it's learning how to communicate in a way that resonates with people, and that is a skill and I'll give you a. I'll give you a metaphor here.
Speaker 1:I used recently on my podcast Ed Maillet in his book the power of one more oh, it's really good book, by the way. He used this metaphor that I thought was excellent, so I'm gonna steal it. And he talked about the metaphor of a pinata and how, when people have these really big goals, they think about like oh, in pen, it's a pinata with all. Like you know, the kids birthday party, there's all like that, the good candy inside, that if I can just get the right whack of the pinata to unearth all the candy, then like whoa, that's what we're going for and in business, we all have our version of what our pinata is. The struggle is we're like stepping up the plate and taking all these whacks and Wondering why is the candy not falling out? Why is the candy not falling out?
Speaker 1:And I I think that a huge part of Getting the pinata aka the revenue and the, the goals that you have for your business Having that all spill out, making it rain, all your goals there's two things right. Number one you have to step up the pinata and I think that's showing up for your business, showing up and talking to your clients. I think too many people show up on a podcast or do an Instagram reel or do something one time and they're like that didn't work. But it's like what did you expect? Taking one whack Randomly here and there of a pinata, of course you're not getting the results that you want. Side note meta that was a challenge question that I just used. So when you step up to the plate, you have to think about how many times are you stepping up to whack the pinata Terrible metaphor here. But this means how many times are you stepping up and talking to your ideal client? Don't actually whack them. It's a metaphor. But the second thing is I want you to imagine that you have a pinata in front of you and you're hitting it with a feather. Of course, the pinata is not going to break. So I want you to think about would you be more effective whacking it with a feather, using a slinky or using a bat? What? What would you like to use to increase the likelihood that the results you want are going to spill out? And I don't know about you, but I'm taking the friggin bat right. Bat in business are the skills that you grow within yourself To ensure that the pinata inevitably spills over, and I think that the most important skill in business is communication.
Speaker 1:It is also, as I mentioned at the top of the episode, the thing we all take for granted, because we all communicate all the time. We've been yammering on and on since we were kids, but there's actually an art and a science behind communication. When you learn how to master it, so many things become possible. Objections in your business start dissolving. People feel more connected to you. You start growing an audience of really engaged people who want to work with you and buy from you. So I think, if you're gonna invest in one area, invest in growing your communication skills. I think doing it on stage in the pressure cooker I that's the best way. If you can speak on a stage in a keynote, you can like slay everything else, but that's why I get really excited here.
Speaker 2:As you can tell, I'm excited about helping people with this area because I see the impact that it has for their business and If I want to, because right now, heather, I'm like Can we just make this podcast two hours long and Rest of the questions that I have about how to speak better and communicate my art and my skill and my passion about Facebook ads so that I can have more clients? Obviously very, very selfish motives that we all have as online course creators or service providers or coaches. But, heather, like, where can somebody get more of this from you at?
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So it's no surprise here if you're listening to me resume with this episode and you're like pants. She's like got a lot to say, but it's resonating. I love the tangible nature of it. I also love the weird kind of quirky analogies. Also, as you can tell, in this episode I have fumbled over my words multiple times. One point I forgot where I was going and had quaggling answer the question. So this idea of I keep it real and demonstrate that you don't have to be perfect when you speak, that doesn't have to impact your success, as long as you know how to communicate well. So if that, if my style, resonates with you, the best place to go is.
Speaker 1:I have a podcast. It has over 200 episodes. It is my favorite place to hang out and I've been told by many people that it's very bingeable and quite hilarious and very Tangible. That word we used earlier, so it's called hint of hustle, and it stands on the premise that I believe that the time you spend on Stage in your business should give you more freedom of flexibility offstage. So I teach people how to be more powerful with their onstage moments, whether it's virtual or in person, whether you're doing webinars, lives, whatever that looks like when you show up. I'll teach you to be more effective so that you can rest and not hustle all the freaking time. So that hint of hustle podcast. And the best place to connect with me is on my website, heather segarcom.
Speaker 2:The mic has been dropped. I don't know what else to say, heather, like thank you for sharing that fire here on the podcast in such a way that, even with just the first parts about the person who I want to reach is on the other side of a mountain and I need to take these steps to bring them to my side of the mountain. Like that, I'm going back before this went live and listening to it just for my own purposes, like that was so Good.
Speaker 1:You have to do that, blend with your audience too. You have to bring in metaphors. This is why people say storytelling is powerful. Storytelling metaphors is the reason why we do that, because those are the things that stick with people. And then there's more like very Specific, tangible things. Those are things people write down. But the stories, the energy you bring, those the things people remember.
Speaker 1:But on that note, before I forget, I know we got super geeky and tactical today on some of those like here's exactly what to say, and I gave you some of those Transitionary lines. I find that's a really great place to start. So if anyone was thinking like, oh, how do I like some of those statements we use today, or some of those phrasing to help people shift to your side of the mountain, I have a cheat sheet. It's called 19 magnetic phrases that help you get that. Hell. Yes, when you're telling people to go sign up for your freebie or to go join your offer, you're taking them to that next step because we're making our speaking effective. If you want the specific phrases that I use and I teach my clients, I've used pretty much all of them on today's episode. So if you felt that I have been magnetic with you and you're also going how I work with this chick. Go grab that free guide. It's at Heather, say your comm forward, slash magnet. That is a great place to start practicing that skill of speaking.
Speaker 2:Awesome, heather. Thanks for taking a moment to be on this podcast. Like one moment You're a time. It's literally going to help so many of the listeners on this podcast over and over again as they listen. I'm sure of it because it's already helped me and I'm about to listen to this episode More times and take it.
Speaker 1:Please share your stories. I love, I love hearing what resonated with people and how y'all use it. So I'm on Instagram. If you want to connect, I'm at the Heather Sager. Seriously, come tell me. Tell me what resonated with you today. I can't wait to hear how you use it.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Thank you, heather, and goodbye for now, bye.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks for listening to another episode of the hint of hustle podcast. That flew right by, didn't it? I hope I didn't say anything super embarrassing today, but if I did, it's pretty much on brand. If you love today's episode, be sure to scroll on down wherever you're listening from, and if you haven't yet left a review, it would mean the world. Hit those five stars. Tell other people who are prospecting podcasts how awesome this show is. Give us a little love. We would appreciate that. And hey, if you're hungry for more of what we do here on this show, you can peruse all of the past episodes, grab the show notes and find out the latest free resources to help you get seen, heard and paid for sharing your expertise. Head on over to Heather Saker calm. You can also grab the link wherever you're listening to this episode, and we'll see you in the next one.
